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Alternative Energy

Green Steam Energy, posted in Featured, Future Energy, Geothermal Energy, Inventions.


Alternative Energy
Alternative Energy

Green Steam Energy

News » Energy | Biofuels | Environment | Hydrogen | Solar | Transportation | Wind
October 30th, 2006 - View Comments

Steam EngineRobert Green, an American Inventor, has developed a brand new technology which generates kinetic energy through the conversion of waste heat (as well as many other fuel sources). The Green Steam Engine is piston powered and designed for a wide assortment of practical applications. These steam engines are easy to build and can be used to power boats, electricity generators, air or water pumps, water distillers, heat pumps, air conditioners and a wide array of other small to medium sized appliances. How-To Plans and Components can be ordered directly through the Green Steam Engine website.

YouTube: Flexible Rod Steam Engine | More Videos

One of the more unique advantages of the engine is its ability to generate energy from the waste heat of engines. Essentially, waste exhaust heat from a vehicle engine can be converted into energy used to some of the vehicle’s cooling systems and pumps. The design is lightweight, small and quiet – making it perfect for many small space situations. This green engine will boost the efficiency levels of any vehicle or machine system it is installed on.

The revolutionary new patented design converts reciprocating movement into rotary movement, greatly streamlining the piston design and allowing for more versatility and project flexibility. There are limitless possibilities and advantages for clean steam power. Some of the main advantages are: less air and noise pollution, high torque at low speeds, multiple fuel capabilities, and long life with low maintenance.

Flexible Rod

About the Flexible Rod Transmission (from Green Steam).

The properties of the patented crank mechanism (called a “flexible rod transmission”) invented by Robert Green, provides this engine with the advantage of eliminating the typical crankshaft and cam that requires lubrication and precision machining. It also provides the unique configuration whereby the cylinders are aligned in the same direction as the main shaft. The result is a compact, lightweight and slim engine that is extremely simple to construct and assemble.

The pistons and valves operate off a short piece of flexible shaft. Because the flexible shaft is fixed and cannot rotate, the piston rods and valve push rod are held in position while being reciprocated. The cylinders float, attached to a swivel ball fitting at their base. Much of the structure and weight of a typical steam engine has been eliminated.

Green Steam EngineThe unique feature of the “Flex Rod Transmission” is that it produces an intermittent movement whereby the valve movement is stopped in its open and closed position during the power and exhaust strokes. This gives prolonged, fully opened valve timing. In compliment, the pistons are held stationary while the valve moves between phases. The output shaft continues rotation while the pistons stand still. The result is that the efficiency is increased dramatically. The overall friction of the engine is reduced due to the small number of light weight moving parts, and the use of ball bearings throughout. The flex rod is nearly frictionless as the flexing is like a spring in which the energy required to flex it is returned in equal amounts.

This engine may be made in a variety of configurations and sizes. For example, one can change piston size and stroke length in a matter of a couple of minutes. One cylinder may be substituted for an air pump cylinder to provide air or water pumping. It can have one or a plurality of cylinders without increasing the number of bearings.

Green Steam EnginePlans and Products

What do you think?

Related posts:

  • http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/technology/heating/ Geothermal

    There is a reason it’s called “waste heat.” No heat engine can reach what’s called Carnot efficiency. Carnot efficiency is determined by: n = (Th-Tc)/Th

    Where:
    n: efficiency
    Th: Hot temperature of working fluid
    Tc: Cold temperature of working fluid

    Th and Tc are both in degrees absolute (Kelvin or Rankine). If your waste heat is 100C and the ambient temperature is 25C then Th=373K and Tc=302K. Tc is greater than 302K because the exhaust temperature of a heat engine is always greater than the ambient temperature. So the maximum possible efficiency is: (373-302)/373 = .19

    It gets worse. The Carnot cycle assumes an isentropic process, so the 19% above can only be acheived if the two conditions are met: exhaust gas temperature is the same as the ambient temperature (never happens) and the entire process is isentropic (also never happens). The reality is going to be more like 5%-10% efficiency, with 10% unlikely.

    I’ll also point out that this is nothing new. Dual fluid turbines were old when I was in college, decades ago. This is just a variation on a dual fluid turbine.

    The next argument will be “well, even if the efficiency is low, it’s still using waste heat, so it must be good because we’re using something that would otherwise be thrown away.”

    This argument has some merit, and if a device can be made cheaply enough, using it would be a good thing. The problem is that when you start to consider the cost ($ and energy) of building and maintaining a low efficiency device, it typically becomes clear that the “solution” is worse then the problem. The exceptions tend to be where one is “off the grid” for personal or political reasons, or where there is no grid.

    I don’t know where the Green engine will fall out on the energy balance, but so far, very few devices to utilize waste heat are able to do so in a competitive manner.

  • Alan

    If you use a fresnel lens or reflector you could use solar radiation to power the engine. The energy is free so efficiency is not a major issue.

    If a closed system was used to power the engine, the formula for the Carnot system no longer holds as the exhaust energy is reused and is not wasted as in an open system.

  • dylan chivers

    I am looking for a wood fired steam plant and engine to generate electricity power about 25 kva.

    info@wisemansbridge.com
    Dylan Chivers, Zambia

  • RalphSiegler

    Hey GEOTHERMAL, your argument against this engine based on efficiency has no merit, all the electricity we get now is heat engine generated and subject to the same rules anyway: nuke, oil, coal power plants all use steam.

  • chad

    Yeah this is just a stirling engine. Jerry E. Howell, a model builder builds some really nice engines based on the same principles, even has a candle powered fan that makes me drool :P . http://www.jerry-howell.com/index.html#a2

  • sam

    It may be similar to a stirling but it definitely looks easier to build. I can see this with a parabolic solar concentrator on sunny days and a hydrogen boiler (utilizing hydrogen stored on sunny days ) keeping a battery bank powered up. Small space requirement, low maintenance, little to no emissions.

  • http://www.cncprototyping.co.nz Mark Stacey

    The plans are rubbish, the claims for 10 hp are rubbish, the design is weak and no better than a standard steam engine. Small steam plants, and 10 hp is VERY small, are lucky to get 10% efficency with a high temperature differential. Extracting “waste” heat means low temperature differentials which hammers efficiency. So you build this rubbish at some considerable cost in either time or money and you can light a 3V torch bulb. Some things are just NOT WORTH DOING.
    Cheers Mark
    Currently building a Green Steam Engine for a friend and HATING IT.

  • Wilbur

    Rubbish is a pretty strong word…

    I think the value of this engine is that it can be built by people that don’t own a CNC machine, with parts that are very easy to source, is fairly reliable and it can be repaired easily.

    I am about to try to get approx. 500 Watts (net) out of a system using a simple solar panel as a preheater, a fresnel lens focused on a simple heat exchanger to flash off the steam. I would recycle the condensate into the system.

    To get the same power with PV panels, the panel cost alone would be approx. $2,500 USD. So anything better would be nice.

    I would like to offer the design to people in impoverished areas that have lots of sun, such as in the Dominican.

    Advice??

    Will.

  • Mark Stacey

    Advice?

    Do the numbers work out the theoretical system efficiency with a non superheated 20psi steam feed?

    Re read what I wrote, you need a lathe and be competent with it, preferably a mill, the ability to silver solder, and it’s still cack, moose drool, garbage, junk etc etc. O-rings sealing 6mm thick pistons is stupid and has absolutely zero chance of handling much over 20psi. No provision for lubricating the alloy cross head with steel piston rod. A brass valve body and steel rotating valve with no lubrication provision. NO insulation on the cylinders so the heat losses are horrific. Miserable control of valve cutoff. Lousy porting and steam losses.

    The plans are pictures with arrows describing the parts, crucial dimensions are missing. There is not one dimensioned drawing in the CD. I have built slide valve steam engines from old refrigeration compressors in a weekend using a drill press. They were pretty average but 20 times better than the Green Steam Engine.
    Look round the web. Claims of 500hp engines, three factories geared up for production in 2004 (yeah right) 24% efficiency bwahahaha. Stupid fantasies with no basis in reality.

    The simple measurement of the water rate (pounds of water per hp) would show just how awful this piece is. Yes there is a patent and my Aunt Agnes has one for reversible bloomers and she’s nuts also.

    Cheers,
    Mark

  • JT

    Mark -
    I’ll give your comments more weight than any of the others, since nobody has yet seemed to offer any comments based on experience versus based on hand-waving, guesses, and Internet surfing.

    I’m interested on your thoughts on this engine not as “designed” (since it sounds like there are no designs provided on the CD, only vague drawings) but on this engine as a concept. While 6mm may be insufficient to handle >20psi, is there a design modification that would make this more feasible? Can the pistons or entire engine be easily insulated to retain heat losses? Is it that the idea of this engine at any “reasonable” efficiency is impossible, or are there modifications that would make it at least useful?

    It seems to me that this engine has three main features that are appealing:

    1) Low pressure operation (I know that means low power, but if you increase piston size and stroke, maybe this gets better.)
    2) Ability to use saturated steam (see #1)
    3) No requirement for piston lubrication in the oil, allowing for closed-loop (or nearly closed-loop) recirculation without an oil separator

    Other benefits (not primary)
    A) No high-precision parts
    B) Can be started from cold without petcock valves or risk of condensation damaging the piston
    C) Apparently simple and inexpensive construction and maintenance

    For a small (<6kw) powerplant, this actually might be reasonable. Capturing and converting ANY high-heat source into DC power as an adjunct to other power input sources seems like a win for me, even if it’s only run for a few hours a day. Certainly, not having to build a high-pressure boiler (and get certification for same) also seems like a win.

    However, if there is no way to modify this engine to work at better than let’s say 10% efficiency, then it’s not much better than the refrigeration compressor route.

    Are there solutions which compare favorably to the Green design with the 3 criteria listed above? Is it completely hopeless or is it just poor implementation in the designs you were provided?

    JT

  • Mark Stacey

    Hi JT,

    Sorry for the slow reply I hadn’t ticked the follow up comments box.

    Lets skip to a bit of theory.
    IHP = PALN/33000
    This is a tool to figure out the theoretical (Indicated) Horse Power of a stream engine per cylinder
    P is mean effective pressure
    A is piston area in square inch
    L is stroke in feet
    N is rpm

    If we plug in some numbers 3″ diameter bore 2″ stroke 500 rpm Mean effective pressure 10psi (assuming steam admission shuts of at 50% stroke) and 2 cylinders we end up with about 0.35 hp. Which seems about right. It would push a canoe along.

    The next step it to determine what water rate this occurs at which determines the fuel consumption and thus the efficiency. A good unit say 4 hp at 120 psi with a little super heat would be lucky to do 10% fuel to shaft hp. Have a look at Strath steam http://www.strathsteam.com/ they supply units for remote area power to give you an idea of what a unit looks like. You need a good supply of fire wood and preferably a way to use a bucket load of hot water.

    If you want some sites to visit (expect to do a LOT of reading) and some references sing out.

    Cheers, Mark

  • JT

    Mark -

    Thanks for the figures. I didn’t quite get the same numbers as you, though:

    IHP=PALN/33000

    IHP=( (10)*(3)*(2/12)*(500) )/33000

    IHP= (0.076 per piston) * 2 = 0.152 for 2 pistons

    Is my calculation for the “stroke in feet” off? 2 inches is .167 feet.

    A rough re-calc says that at 50psi avg pressure, 9 cubic inches of piston area per piston, 4 inches of stroke, and 1000 RPM would give 9.09 IHP. Quite an increase in size/speed/pressure to get to that number.

    Anyway, the calculation is kind of beside the point. Would you say that this engine method, even with larger pistons and stroke, is a lost cause? The two benefits I see (no lubrication required, saturated low pressure steam) might outweigh the detractions, but only if it actually -works- as advertised.

    The Strath Steam stuff is interesting, but as as Mike Brown’s engines. However, they both require fairly high pressure and lubrication, which requires expensive certified boilers and non-recyclable feedwater respectively. I understand the efficiency problems with creating the steam – I’m not thinking that this system is any magic bullet for exceeding any Carnot ‘brick wall’ efficiency barriers.

    Would it be worth scaling this engine up to a reasonable size (5-8 hp) or is it not worth the time in your opinion?

    JT

  • Mark Stacey

    Hi JT,

    I quoted piston diameter, not piston area in square inches in my preamble. (easier for me to visualize) so 3″ = 7.07 Sq inch.

    And no I wouldn’t scale it up, the design is marginal at best and even at the as drawn size at 50psi it will simply flog out.

    You don’t need lubrication in the steam at 120 psi as long as you have no super heat. I run our steam boat with no lube but I do lubricate at shut down to keep the rust worms away (Can’t afford an all bronze engine!). The boiler water no matter what pressure should be treated other wise you will lose the boiler to the corrosion worms at an appalling pace and even 20 psi is a boiler. A boiler at 20psi producing enough steam to run 5 hp is going to be a big piece of kit just to get enough heating surface, and will still hold a lot of energy. You don’t ever want it to let go. I’ve dealt with a 200L oil drum idiots had got up to about 10 psi due to chemical reactions inside it very very scary and it was only lukewarm.

    There are ways round this ie monotube but to get then to run stably requires a LOT of faffing about, and probably sacrifices of virgin stokers over James Watts grave at midnight.

    Do you have local steam boaters? regattas you can travel to? You can find a lot of hands on and any steam boat owner will happily bore your ears off. We love to talk steam :-)

  • Finn

    Mark,

    It sounds like you have a lot of experience with steam engines.

    I am interested in the sites you mentioned and also any information you might be able to provide about converting another engine to a steam engine. I am interested in making an engine in the 5hp range or so.

    Thanks

  • JT

    Mark -
    Thanks for summary again. Yes, I’ve got some steam classes under my belt now running traction engines at the NW Antique Powerland location – those are >250 gallon systems at 60hp or so.

    I’ve got myself a fairly small boiler that is “awaiting restoration” – see http://www.loligo.com/projects/steam/boiler/ and follow the obvious links for pictures. It’s not a tube boiler, and it’s terribly inefficient, but it’s a start – I’ll build a Yarrow boiler or something better after I get some more soot under my fingernails.

    I’d never leave a boiler alone, no worries about that. My goal would be 75psi. And I’d treat the water in the boiler for anti-rust mixture, but being able to recycle the water without running it through an oil separator would be ideal. So I’m encouraged by your comments about running your engine without lubrication, but that goes against what I’ve learned and read.

    Ideally, I’d like to use rainwater to avoid mineral buildup. I’d like to recycle the water without gumming up the boiler, since rainwater is a limited resource. This implies running without lube oil or getting an oil removal system, and I’m trying to avoid complexity and cost, hence my interest in the Green design.

    Thanks for your comments on the Green steam engine. I’ll put my efforts first into my single-cylinder horizontal before I experiment with the Green system, but it sounds like you have little faith that the Green design could be used to efficiently get ~10hp.

    JT

  • David Renn

    I bought a set of plans out of curiosity and I have to admit that Mark is correct. The joints are crude and not steam tight. The great claims for the patented spring link are a bit of a joke.

    Monotube boilers (flash steam) don’t need certification by the way and don’t need to run at high pressures. They do need some experimentation as there is little hard information about them. The most famous monotube was in the Doble steam cars. A great deal of info is available in older model engineering publications as flash steam boats used to hold all the speed records

  • Allen

    Hi, I’m a bit clueless on thermodynamics.

    Anyhow, I have an unlimited suuply of wood.

    I need at least 2 steam engines which are 35 hp.

    Can anyone give me info on building them???

    Thanks!

  • Rachin.u.r

    Sir,

    I am Rachin.UR B.Tech final year student. I am interested in taking a seminar about GREEN STEAM ENGINE. Please give me more detail about this engine. My email is “rachu0423[AT]yahoo.co.in”

    Thank you,
    rachin.ur

  • Fred Rosse

    I have built and operated a home power cogeneration plant, an automatic coal fired cogeneration system, using 135 psi steam in a small uniflow reciprocating engine, driving a generator. A paper was presented at the ASME Joint Power Generation Conference in 2003, giving details of the system, along with a diesel engine system of similar application. It is paper No. IJPC2003-40192, titled “Experience with Early Distributed Generation Systems”.

    Having much experience with small generation systems and steam machinery, I must agree with virtually all of what Mark Stacey has presented.

    Fred Rosse

  • chuck robbins

    What if you could power the generator with a closed system steam engine?

    I have a way to generate incredible amounts of heat to drive the steam engine.

    I wish I were an engineer so I could build a prototype.

    How does a person go about obtaining a grant from the govt?

    The only overhead involved is the original outlay of money for the engine, the generator and the land to place the units upon.

    It’s hard to trust anyone these days. I am afraid that if I share my thoughts that my idea will be stolen and I will get nothing for the invention.

  • Kyle

    Hello Steamers-

    Thanks JT and Mark for the discussion. I had high hopes for the green steam, but it is not sounding so great now….. Although I still may tinker around with recovering some energy from a shunt loop on a solar water heating system and trying to recover heat from the condenser. I was thinking of a closed loop (boiler-engine- condenser-pump ) that would contain a fluid with a boiling point of around 120 F. Any recommendations for a fluid with that kind of a working temp? As you can probably tell I’m new to the concept so any tips and pointers would be great.

    Thank you!

  • Jessie Stanley

    Low temperature geothermal is being utilized right now to drive turbine generators at a site in Utah and the power is being sold to Anaheim, California. Raser Technologies utilizes a proprietary, low temp. process to boil a liquid (ammonia? freon?) to drive turbines in a closed loop system. There should be no such thing as waste heat.

  • http://greenwindmill.com Peter Sharma

    This is not a Stirling and is not rubbish. In fact this engine has been in trials with the US Army for some time, I have seen it running on a minimal heat source and not only does it work, it is instant-on and quite powerful while light-weight and nearly friction free.

    Bottom line… Bob Greens inventions work and work well for not a lot of cost. His process and tech is always brilliant in simplicity.

  • Tex

    What differs this design from the old Steam Locomotive. See http://www.animatedengines.com/locomotive.shtml

    Pistons attached to a mechanism that turns a flywheel. The multi-piston approach is worse because the more mechanical pieces you have the more friction there is. There are Rankine cycle turbines that can efficiently gather waste heat right now. Its just that they cost a lot and very little energy is recovered.

  • http://greenwindmill.com Peter Sharma III

    Comment not, Tex, unless you have seen it for yourself. The 12 cylinder still has only 1 bearing!

  • mark stacey

    “n fact this engine has been in trials with the US Army for some time”
    Just like there are 500hp engines and three factories in china?
    I have a bridge you might like to buy

    “nearly friction free.”
    The design with rubber o-rings is definitely not friction free and unless you slather rubber lube the o-rings stick to the cylinder walls.

    “The 12 cylinder still has only 1 bearing!”
    Each cylinder has a bearing at either end. The swivel the steam enters by and the bearing connecting the con rod to the spider that connects to the crank. There is another bearing there plus the bearings supporting the drive shaft. Please look at the videos before commenting.

  • Jeff Allen

    Mark and the group;

    I am a fairly complete “newbie” and have just in the last few months started my exploration of steam with a view in mind of applying it to a low-pressure solar-driven system to capture power to rechargeable (nickel-iron) batteries. I have found the comments fascinating reading.

    I was pleased to find the “Green Steam” engine, but from what I’ve seen of the “Green Steam” videos, I was highly skeptical of the 10HP assertions for the 2-cylinder engines. It would appear my skepticism is well founded.

    That said, I am looking to explore two discreet applications.

    First, is a relatively low-powered “flash tube” system driven by sunlight to power my “battery charger”

    Second, is a low-powered system to use to convert a Mazda B2200 to multi-fuel steam, preferably in the 30 HP range. The truck doesn’t need to go more than 100KPH/60MPH I figure; I just want it to be able to haul the same load effectively that it does now – a maximum of about 450KG/1000 lbs. Obviously, not filling the bed with boiler is important ;)

    I have access immediately to a drill press and band saw, and via various machinist friends, lathes of different sizes. I’m open to most any recommendation for how to approach these problems.

  • mark stacey

    Hi Jeff drop in to the Steam Automobile of America Forum. You will get more answers than you can shake a stick at, lots of argument usually good natured and access to back issues and heaps of technical data. A steam vehicle even with modest performance is a BIG undertaking as there is nothing much off the shelf unless you want to recreate a vintage Stanley and then the parts etc are pricey. Vintage Steam cars in average condition ie lots of work needed) start at $40,000 and then the price heads up. Home brewed modern steam cars come up on ebay etc but you are often buying a science experiment that can age you fast.

  • mark stacey

    Sorry Steam Automobile CLUB of America
    http://www.steamautomobile.com/
    also
    http://www.steamcar.net/ The British steam car club

  • stewart

    I wanted to thank Mark for the information provided in his posts. So much pie in the sky. So little time to waste frigging around with them. I don’t know what the time lost factor would have been had I gone forward with this product.

    It seems a rather simple thing to post specifications and operating performance data related to several (or even one) iterations of a product like this. I have looked and can’t find a whiff. Nor can I find anyone making them commercially which would be a natural result of their being any correlation between claims and results.

    Anyway… Thanks Mark.

  • a2k

    hey hi,

    I am working on steam engine to prove its concept especially for Indian conditions. I have certain doubts regarding development of mechanical stresses and stability of the structure. I also wish to know opinion regarding its use with solar thermal systems.

  • Jorgen

    This is a working toy. The fact something runs, do not mean you can get any useful works out of it.
    And you must look at the biggest issue, the boiler.

    A modern steam engine, should have a flash boiler, making about 500 centigrades (some less can in some application work). The water is then liquid, and a very small amount of so hot water goes to the working cylinder, expanding more than thousand times.
    This have been known for more then 100 years, but they did not have microchips for controlling it safe.

    Steam will be something for future movable applications.

    (You will understand despite my poor english, which happen to be my third language).

  • http://greenwindmill.com Peter Sharma III

    I have seen this engine function with freon as the fluid being boiled… needless to say, the required caloric energy is significantly less than for water.

  • mark stacey

    “I have seen this engine function with freon as the fluid being boiled… needless to say, the required caloric energy is significantly less than for water.”

    The working fluid makes minimal real world difference to the efficiency. The temperature differential is what counts. The problem with freon is nasties if it leaks into the fire box, the need for a LARGE feed heater to absorb the heat retained in the engine exhaust and the cost of the freon as a working fluid. With the way the Green engine is designed the leakage of freon would cripple any budget.

  • a2k

    Hi Jorgen,

    But what if we use solar troughs to generate steam… U may not be aware of conditions in rural place but there is a lot of requirement of stand alone systems where grid is unavailable

    Advice?

    Aaroh

  • http://greenwindmill.com Peter Sharma III

    Solar Ponds and Solar troughs are very effective and no matter what the naysayers here wish to spout, the Army and Private Corps are doing quite well in their trials of the Green Steam Engine.

  • mark stacey

    “the Army and Private Corps are doing quite well in their trials of the Green Steam Engine.” Since Aug 2009??

    And I assume the three factories in China and the 500hp units “doing quite well” or does “quite well” mean sent back in a box with a thanks but no thanks note?

    Rather than just ignoring the technical criticisms perhaps you could respond instead of posting uncritical adulation for the green steam engine.

  • a2k

    Dear Peter,

    Can u please give some details where this engine (coupled with solar troughs and ponds) is being used…

  • JT

    So this thread keeps puttering along, but with no real data to support the original Green Steam device. I’m sad to see that is the case. Videos, pictures, arm-waving – but no data. No graphs. No repeatable results by third parties. I had written this off as a fable some time ago, but the activity on this thread made me think about it again and see if the circumstances had changed. Not quite, is the answer, but someone IS apparently trying to prove it out.

    There apparently is a licensee of the Green Steam engine. Out of intellectual curiosity (and the “hope springs eternal” mindset) I contacted them in July to ask about testing on the engine. They said they were about to do testing, and I should call back in a few weeks. Well, I called back today. Frankly, I had forgotten entirely about it since it’s in the “probably not true” category of my brain, which doesn’t get dusted often. I spoke with someone there and asked about progress. They said that the tests they did with a solar boiler owned by University of Nevada Las Vegas (videos on the Green Steam power website at the moment) were inconclusive since the boiler burned a hole in itself. So they’re about to do more testing with a “real” boiler company, and I should call back in two or three weeks.

    The claim is: 33 shaft horsepower at 150 PSI at 600 RPM, and a steam use of 183 pounds of steam per hour. (If you don’t know what “pounds per hour” is, I’d suggest reading up a bit on steam boiler stuff – it’s useful to understand.)

    I await (not entirely anxiously, but interested) the results of their testing, and actual solid evidence of output. Ten hours of steady running with a significant load (not freewheeling!) of a compressor, or alternator, with measured output results over a variety of input pressures and loads would be what convinces me that this is worth anything at all. Then, just as importantly, running an engine for fifteen or twenty days with a constant production-level load and seeing what faults arise and how often – that’s just as important. I’ll call back in a while and try to remember to post my results here.

    HIL GreenPower, Inc.
    13844 Alton Parkway
    Irvine, CA 92618 USA
    949-297-4861
    Fax 949-297-4897
    http://www.hilgreenpower.com/
    (“Website isn’t up yet.” Hmm… you couldn’t hope for a more un-believable set of circumstances.)

    JT

  • JT

    Oh.. and I should have done the calculations here before I submitted my previous comment. I’ll leave them as an exercise to the reader to determine if they make sense. To convert some of these numbers around, I’d suggest this document:

    http://www.abma.com/BOILER_HP_HISTORY.pdf

    JT

  • http://steamenginepower.com David Ramos

    6 Cylinder Green Steam Engine – Now Available!

    Anyone have a 125 psi flash boiler design and closed loop system we can adapt for international orders?

  • Axel

    Did anybody buy a Green Steam Engine? 6 cylinders
    http://www.steamenginepower.com/products-and-specs.html

    they claim 15hp – 20hp and up to 10kwh !
    No friction, little to no maintenance …

    it would be the end of fossil fuel dependence!
    Please tell me your opinion about it and if you think that it really works like described.

  • mark stacey

    “they claim 15hp – 20hp and up to 10kwh !
    No friction, little to no maintenance …No friction, little to no maintenance …”

    They have assumed the full pressure of the boiler is for the full stroke of the piston. That is rubbish as the steam is not being expanded therefore it is horrendously inefficient. If they cut the steam off for part of the stroke the efficiency dramatically improves but the power drops.

    The engine will have just as much friction and wear just as fast as a conventional steam engine made of the same materials.

    “it would be the end of fossil fuel dependence!”

    If the boiler is fired by diesel, coal etc etc. Nope.

    There are steam engine and boiler builders who do have a track record and stand behind their products. Strath steam in Australia. Reliable Steam. etc etc. A short google search will pull them up

  • http://steamenginepower.com David Ramos

    The GSE bio-combuster is biomass based – carbon neutral and negative in some cases.

    We are a startup – that is true. Risk-Reward!

    No steam engine to date as been made of these materials.

    Watch the videos – We’ve been working on this for many years.

    Come visit – sign an NDA/NCA – you won’t sleep for days!

  • ScaryDAve

    I still think this thing is most likely a sham but I did come across this video. Comments disabled and no way to read what it’s putting out wattage or HP wise. Nor is there a way to see what pressure is going in or what RPM it is running at.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMCKdWGwQM8

    As a former special effects guy, my experience is, if it works, people use it. If you can’t find anyone bragging about how well it works, it’s because it doesn’t.

    I would love for this to be real but it seems like nothing more than a toy thus far.

    In this video of the same POS machine failing to perform well, is another machine made of a hydraulic ram and valve which seems far more interesting. http://vimeo.com/6670938

    Sorry to sound pessimistic but after all these years, if this worked, it would be a no brainer for sale in the back of popular mechanics and a hundred other places.

    DAve

  • http://steamenginepower.com David Ramos

    We also purchased the Green Steam Engine “Kit” many years ago.

    We saw “potential” – despite initial concerns, reservations, videos, etc.

    Our engineers saw “great” potential. As a result – we have made significant improvements.

    Take a look at “todays” version (6 cylinder photos and videos) at
    both the inventors website: http://www.greensteamengine.com
    and our website – the manufacturer at: http://www.steamenginepower.com

    ScaryDave is showing an early kit or prototype that is at least 3 years ago – when there were “no” production versions – just kits.

    The production version has only been on the market for 2-3 weeks.

    I think you’ll be impressed!

    David

  • mark stacey

    I’ll be impressed when the misleading power claims are corrected and the steam rate at a specified temperature and pressure is posted ie horsepower per weight of steam in a unit time. That is what is used to evaluate steam engine performance and enables a comparison to other engines.

  • JT

    Ah-ha! A website with something actually operating, and pushing a generator. Now, we’re about 1/3 of the way there.

    So, you have one running. Fantastic. Now comes the hard part: numbers and data.

    1) How many pounds of steam per hour does the engine consume?

    2) You have a 25 HP engine connected to a 4.5KW generator. That seems to be a bit of a mismatch. Have you run anything larger? Is your steam generator able to keep up with that kind of load?

    3) Can you show a chart that graphs from sensors over time:
    – pounds of steam per hour
    – PSI of steam
    – KW output at engine shaft
    – RPM of shaft

    I’d want this data for at least 6 hours.

    4) Can you show, with first-hand experimental data to back it up, how this engine is more efficient than a slide-type reciprocating engine at the same input rates?

    5) What are the advantages to the engine that you are selling over other designs? Your website is pretty much devoid of this information.

    6) Have you run this engine for 24 hours straight? 48? A week? A month?

    7) What are the wear components in this engine? What are the consumables? Specifically, list them and their part numbers and their frequency of replacement.

    This may sound very demanding, but it’s the typical kind of data that any prime mover manufacturer must provide. If it’s not provided, then I’d not really consider the engine as an option. Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence.

    I won’t sign an NDA or an NCA or whatever else, I’m afraid. If I’m going to buy one of these, I would expect to see this data up front so an NDA would only make me suspicious that you’re trying to keep me silent on things that don’t work. The good news is that I don’t see you (Steamenginepower.com) making crazy claims. The bad news is that you don’t make any claims at all, so I’m not sure why I should consider a Green-style engine that you make as an alternative to any other type of steam engine that is a much more proven design.

    PS: I really don’t care how the steam is produced. Saying it’s biomass, or carbon-neutral, or whatever – that’s really completely meaningless, and immediately makes me very leery of whoever is making the claims when they reference their engine design. Steam production is my problem, and how I generate the heat is orthogonal to the method and efficiency of the engine which consumes it. Unless you’re producing and selling application-specific boilers, don’t talk about biomass, or saving the environment, or whatever.

    PPS: I am spending so much time writing these replies because I have money for purchase of a good steam engine. Thus far, I have not seen evidence of one so I continue to ask questions until someone can satisfy me that my money will not be wasted purchasing their product.

    JT

  • a2k

    Hi All,

    I am currently developing prototype of 2 cylinders green steam engine which claims to give 10 shaft HP. Actually I am facing a mechanical problem which is as to when I pass steam in cylinders, the flywheel at rear fails to perform rotatory motion and does only oscillatory motion. Please advice me what could be the probable problem and what changes must be done to make it rotate.
    Please Advice.
    Thanks

  • mark stacey

    Hi a2k
    The geometry of the angled pin that takes the hollow cross arm that holds the base of the cylinders and allows steam to and from the cylinders has to be accurately aligned with the theoretical point on the output shaft the cylinders rotate round. The crude drawings from Green don’t allow for this and the flex rod is supposed to take up the misalignment. Correct geometry would allow a universal or CV joint to replace the flex rod.
    The other problem is adjusting the rotary valve cutouts to the ports and the actuating cam. I had to draw the whole thing out to try and get the engine adjusted right. A proper set of plans for a steam engine has this detailed not so on the green steam.
    Good luck adjusting it.
    I handed the engine back to the owner I built it for to continue the tweaking as I was sick of trying to fix the problems.
    As per the video mentioned above there is a bit of dialogue about the Green engine “Whats wrong with it?” “Do you have a couple of hours?” The speaker has one of the largest modern high power steam engine collections in the world and knows what he is talking about.

  • JT

    Mr. Ramos -
    You further do not build confidence when your website (steamenginepower.com) has no contact information, the “whois” data is hidden, there are no phone numbers or names on the site, and the “contact us” webform does not work. So you’re selling these…. how, exactly?

  • http://steamenginepower.com David Ramos

    The production version – 6 cylinder works great.

    The GSE that Steve Polk used on his Solar Tests – works great also.
    Has anyone even talked to Steve?

    I’ve learned that often the biggest reason that people “bash” – is because “they have a dog in the hunt”.

    Why do you keep referring to a 7 year old 2 cylinder “kit”?

    The 6 Cylinder is a “marvel”. You can generate power with 3 cylinders, while you’re compressing air with 2 cylinders and pumping water with 2 cylinders. Try doing that with the old iron-sides!

    Any serious projects out there? Step up and buy one! You’ll be happy!

  • Axel

    Mr. Ramos we’re all waiting your answers…. We’re really are interested in your engines ….. let us know where in the USA are your sales point for a live demonstration and buy it.
    Thank you

  • http://steamenginepower.com David Ramos

    Axel

    We’re setting up Distributors and working with International Projects now.

    However – you can visit our location in Elkhart Indiana – just make an
    appointment.

    We do require an NDA – as there are technologies that are pending release.

    Feel free to call and setup a time to visit at: 574-295-1083.
    or email me at steamenginepower[AT]gmail.com

    Sincerely,

    David Ramos
    SEP/AEW

  • Axel

    Well Mr Ramos, let us know when you’ve Distributors set up anywhere in the US. We’ll travel over there, try and buy even more than one engine without any need to sign for an NDA as technologies won’t be pending any longer……

  • http://steamenginepower.com David Ramos

    Axel,

    If you don’t want to sign the NDA – no worries – we’ll demo the GSE driven by a high powered steam pressure device fired by natural gas or bottled gas.

    The NDA is only required to see our micro-chp system in development.
    As long as you don’t want to see these technologies – no problem.

    Anyone is welcome anytime:

    AEW
    Elkhart Indiana

    Call anytime to make an appointment 574-295-1083
    or email steamenginepower[AT]gmail.com

    Sincerely,

    David Ramos
    SEP/AEW

  • JT

    Still waiting on those answers, months later. I’m really hoping that someone can provide actual results with the data I requested above and show that the Green Steam Engine is actually useful. Until then, I remain unconvinced, and with every passing day become more pessimistic that this is anything other than a toy regardless of who is building it.

    PS: I don’t have “a horse in the race”. I am a buyer, but I won’t spend my money on something about which all of the details are not made abundantly clear well in advance of my purchase. I think I speak for most people here when I say that.

    JT

  • JT

    Still waiting, many months later. The website (steamenginepower.com) is notably empty of any actual data – there is a video (a good first step!) but no real information on reliability, steam usage characteristics, durative tests, horsepower curves, nothing. Empty. While I consider this slightly above “fantasy” because you have a working device, I’m afraid that it’s still in the realm of “toy model” until substantive data can be provided on usefulness of this system.

    JT

  • Anonymous

    There was a very long comment thread attached to this post, which in summary asked for any proof at all from the proponents of the Green Steam engine as to ANY data on reliability, efficiency, etc. There were zero useful replies, and the general consensus was that the Green Steam engine is unproven and there exists no data that puts it in anything other than the “pipe dream” category.

    Suspiciously, that whole thread is now missing, at least on the version of the page that I’m looking at which now has “0 comments” where there used to be many dozens across several years. Seems a little odd.

    So in the interests of putting at least some data back here, I submit the following link to the Internet Archive, which has comments up to May 2010 – there were only several more comments along the lines of “Yes, sign an NDA and we’ll show you that it works” and “Nonsense, put public data up if you want people to buy it” but zero useful information or links were published after that point to my recollection.

    http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/green-steam-energy/

    I still await a reply from anyone who can display data that has run one of these engines in production.

    JT

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